seaweeds ([info]seaweeds) wrote,
@ 2008-06-05 17:35:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Current music:*sounds of evil fan*

ok .. I have to work...
ok .. since petrol is soooo expensive now .. I actually have to WORK .. *bleah*

to keep u all entertained ... here is a very balanced article about WHY petrol is so expensive and whether it will ever go back to reasonable levels again ...

http://useconomy.about.com/od/commoditiesmarketfaq/p/high_gas_prices.htm

we must remember that oil producing countries are NOT the ones getting the wind fall from these increased prices .. it is the commodities traders who earn the bulk of the "profit"

a simplified version of the futures contract purchase system is like this:

Oil Producer: "I offer to deliver you 50 barrels of crude oil on 1st October 2010 for USD 50 per barrel ok. Delivery at Port XYZ"

Purchaser A: "Ok .. I pay u now for ur 50 barrels of crude oil at USD 50 per barrel .. MAKE sure u deliver 1st october 2010 at port XYZ ahh !!!"

[Purchaser A PAYS Oil Producer USD50 per barrel for a future supply now] pls note: Oil Producer gets paid at USD50 per barrel rate now.

Purchaser A: "Eh eh eh !!!! I got cheap contract leyy ... I got USD50 per barrel for oct 2010 delivery @ port XYZ .. wan buy anot??? I expect prices will go up in one months time !!"

Purchaser B: "WAHHH !!!!! ok ok ok !!! cool mann .. I buy from u USD70 per barrel for oct 2010 delivery .. can can ??"

[Purchaser B PAYS purchase A USD70 per barrel]

[ad infinitum until like SEPT 25th 2010]


Oil Refinery: "WEiii !!!! where is the crude oil??!!!!"

Purchaser Z : "I got I got... 50 barrels October 2010 delivery port XYZ, I sell to you at USD135 per barrel .. u wan anot ?? dun wan u can go and die .. "

Oil Refinery: *think think think .. ok lah .. I can sell processed at USD750 per barrel .. * "OK !! I buy !!"

Purchaser Z : *grinzzzzz!!!* DONE !!

Purchaser Z: *calls purchase A* "eh .. anymore cheap future delivery ahh !!!"


so u seee ???

PETRONAS does NOT get the windfall ... the profit makers are purchasers A, B, C, D, E ========> Z

Petronas will get an increased price for say .. october 2020 supply .. but by october 2020 the above scenario will repeat itself and the actual price when it reaches the refinery and our petrol pumps, would be obscenely and artificially increased by the very same Purchasers A - Z.

what petronas OUGHT to do is to do its own refinery project and be an exporter of PETROL and jet fuel .. and not be just merely a crude oil producer ... this is why the arabian countries and venuzuela can sell to their domestic markets at such a low price .. coz they have own supply of crude and own supply of processed crude.

The above is a simplistic explanation .. but it is pretty accurate.

I shall not confuse the issue wid things like "closing price, margin calls, underlying price, effective short selling, hedging" and watnots ... is just a very simple:

"I promise to deliver to u product ABC at Future date and I want RM25 ringgit for this promise"

and futures traders just keep on buying dat promise over and over at consecutively higher and higher prices until the time for dat promise is to be fulfilled. But u see .. the original promise maker onli gets that RM25 as that is what he contracted for wid the first purchaser of dat promise lo ..

now u knoe horr .. is a direct selling nightmare !!!

same wid rice, same wid corn, same wid flour .. everything is like dat .. so dun think the producer of the goods will earn lo .. and even if he produces MORE, the markets will still be driven up by these derivative traders .. selling promises which are "in the air" over and over and over.

This is why the arabian crude sellers all think the current prices are illogical, totally illogical. Production is UP, and demand is LOWer, YET .. futures prices are going crazy.

This is why Japan suspended futures trading on rice to stop the madness in relation to rice.

Hope explain until like dis can understand horrr ... need me to do a Prada Wallet or LV bag example anottttt ?? gegegegegegegegege



(Post a new comment)


[info]wenchu38
2008-06-05 09:43 am UTC (link)
what i cannot understand is the petrol i pump at the petrol kiosk always go up but never come down loh.... :p

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 09:45 am UTC (link)
lolll !!!!!!! u got READ ANOTTT !!! lolllll .. so fast reply onli !! sure din read finish !! gegegegegege

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]wenchu38
2008-06-05 10:00 am UTC (link)
Bingo! any documents more than 10cm would surely bored me. kekeke....

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 10:01 am UTC (link)
lolll !!!!! I knoe what u mean ... HAHAHAHHAA

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]totoro2006
2008-06-05 10:08 am UTC (link)
Well lets just hope that it's only documents more than 10 cm that puts you off....taking a closer examination. (^_^)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-05 10:15 am UTC

[info]totoro2006
2008-06-05 10:10 am UTC (link)
Eh maybe you should author a book on that....petrol futures hedging for Idiots...makes tons of money and u dun have to worry about petrol price increasing, just but some oilwell and refinery somewhere lor...wahahahah

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-05 10:17 am UTC

[info]czerin
2008-06-05 10:09 am UTC (link)
-wide eyes of enlightment- so I must buy Prada's October 2010 collection!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 10:15 am UTC (link)
yes yes yes !!! delivery @ Taka !!! lollll

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wokchan
2008-06-05 11:07 am UTC (link)
So if the government kind enough to control the import and trading of crude oil, avoiding it to change hands so many times or monopoly the business, not just the government can earn more but still maintain cheap selling to consumer? -.-?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 11:19 am UTC (link)
it will only work if ur car runs on crude oil lo .. gegggegee .. den horr .. u can just go to terengganu dere and dig dig a hole and put it into ur car FREE .. gegegege

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kakashi_hatake_
2008-06-05 11:19 am UTC (link)
i thot demand is high, cuz of china and india?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 11:22 am UTC (link)
*looks around* .. dat is what they wan u to believeee .....

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Markets/Commodities/Crude_oil_futures_continue_to_fall_on_MCX_/articleshow/3101979.cms

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ram4hire
2008-06-05 12:34 pm UTC (link)
I beg to differ in view. Not in the case of oil prices at least.

I refer to The Economist (May 31st 2008)'s article "The oil price: Recoil."

(http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11454989)

The sub-heading "Action Replay" carefully and explicitly explains that speculators have been scapegoated by politicians for the rising oil prices that is hurting the economies. The claim of speculators profiteering from the situation "does not stand up to much scrutiny", it says.

The underlying reason for the rise is spelt out in the last two sentences in the fourth para, and the analysis for a possible abatement in the sub-heading "Hope at the bottom of the barrel."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 01:21 pm UTC (link)
I do agree with you that speculators are not the sole cause. Another factor is that oil is traded in USD which has less buying power now and the "subsidy" mentality of certain governments which creates an artificial economy.

But more importantly, we do need to reevaluate our reliance on a non sustainable resource such as oil.

However the illustration which I drew is not incorrect. The oil producers do not instantly gain from the high pump prices. The economist article just created another scapegoat instead and pointed it back to the oil producers.

The cutting out of the "middle people" proves that pump petrol prices can be lowered if the price of crude is within the control of the oil refineries [ie: Venezuela (RM0.13 per litre) and the Arabian countries (RM.30 per litre in some parts) ]

The "hope at the bottom of the barrel" is a true market demand re-engineering. The article speaks of a possible down cycle when demand is low ie: when the SUVs have been sold.

This is correct, and it is precisely at this "downcycle" point that fund managers will find that oil is no longer profitable or volatile enuff to speculate for profits in, then they will leave it alone, just like what they did for the precious metals long long time ago. I mean, who speculates in gold anymore nowadays?

I think it is great that you come up with such an intelligent response ! gegegegegegege .. dat is why I love u lots ! gegegegege

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ram4hire
2008-06-05 01:50 pm UTC (link)
You know, you continue to amaze me.

I mean, apart from having par excellence abilities in your area of work and contribution in psychological support services, your keen ability to observe and analyse current affairs is amazing. It takes a lot to juggle this extent of information, and even more to have an indepth knowledge to analyse them and provide your input/insight.

Often a time, I struggle. As I grow older, there is so much out there that there is often not enough time for everything. Do you feel the same?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-05 02:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ram4hire, 2008-06-05 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-05 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ram4hire, 2008-06-05 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-05 04:08 pm UTC

[info]kakashi_hatake_
2008-06-05 07:12 pm UTC (link)
well the truth is probably somewhere in between. and what complicates matters is that shell et al dabble heavily in futures as well, likely more for speculation than for genuine hedging purposes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 03:05 am UTC

[info]tckl
2008-06-05 01:19 pm UTC (link)
this is full of nonsense can -_-"

Purchaser A won't tell Purchaser B his cost price one lah :P

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 01:25 pm UTC (link)
aiya !! illustration purposes onli de laaaa !!!!!

between Purchaser A and B is like an internal contract between known buyers laa. sometimes inter subsidiary exchange contracts are like dis wann .. gegege .. the exchange house dun care wan .. as long as they get their margin fees .. gegege

Purchaser Z and oil refinery is the pure "arms length" contract lo ....

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]soveren
2008-06-05 05:02 pm UTC (link)
i wonder if i can do kfc futures...hmm

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-05 05:59 pm UTC (link)
soo many futures ... first was keropok now kfc .. lolllll .. but 11 secret herbs and spices may be listed on the commodities market ... gegegegeg e

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]soveren
2008-06-05 06:01 pm UTC (link)
oh i know, LJ comments!
woo...
i will comment u 20 comments by xx xxx 20xx
kekekekee

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 03:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 07:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-06 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-06 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-07 06:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-07 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seaweeds, 2008-06-07 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]soveren, 2008-06-07 08:01 am UTC

[info]serabut
2008-06-06 03:13 am UTC (link)
Hi! I stumbled on this post from my friendsfriends list, and thanks for the info dump. I had a suspicion abt this (my mum used to operate a petrol kiosk, but I could never really understand her explanation). Anyway, just to let you know, I've added you to my flist - no need to reciprocate, I'd just been enjoying your posts. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-06 03:19 am UTC (link)
heyyy !!! thank you so much for dropping by !!! I am glad to be able to help explain some things .. gegeggege .. u just made my day by adding me .. and of COURSE I will add u back !! geggegegee

thanks again for ur lovely comment .. gegegege

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aimeless
2008-06-07 05:21 am UTC (link)
i don't think futures traders are to blame. because, the inverse can also occur, i.e. bearish scenario. I got a hunch that national subsidies are to blame. Those evil stuff artifically props up demand and national governments just keep paying more for wastage, giving an excuse for prices to continue rising...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seaweeds
2008-06-07 06:34 am UTC (link)
it is a conundrum of reasons, the traders cannot shirk off responsibility in this. Their gains are unconscionable as they add no value to the product at all.

When demand is high and the commodity value is volatile, it becomes a very attractive investment for traders, much like how the asian currencies and the precious metals used to be hotly traded ..

this is why demands needs to be readdressed to make the furtures less attractive in the long run.

However with emerging markets like china and india, this is not easy to do, with or without the subsidies. Electricity still needs to be generated and vehicles have to move.

Short to mid term measures need to be put in place to address the current escalating problems, commodities are now the hot item traded as the shares market are in a very slump-ish environment. This causes loss of food security as the "paper gains" are pushed to the ultimate consumer as higher buying prices.

This is why japan suspended futures trading in rice and PM Abdullah is suggesting doing the same world wide to oil futures.

But this post was meant to explain how the commodities trading market works and how profits are generated along the line thus causing escalating costs without adding value.

Many in Malaysia have blamed petronas for not subsidising, as they think that the moment petrol prices rise, petronas will gain gazillions also. This is just not true.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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